Monday, November 13, 2006

The Day that Haunts Me...


"Hellblazer" is an Iraq war veteran and served in the US army as a Specialist Scout. The following, is his account of a battle that took place in Ba'Quba, Iraq in November 2004.
I believe that a good portion of a person's character is forged in times of great hardship.
It is these times that all of our strengths and weaknesses, both mental and physical, come to light.
We either come out of the situation humbled by how it made a quick end to our greatest efforts or confident of our abilities as we overcome.
But sometimes it takes us to another place.
A place where we succeeded in overcoming adversity, but at a cost we couldn't come to bear.
This is the place I visited, and will never forget.

Two years ago, I was a scout stationed in Iraq on a small dusty camp in the city of Ba'Quba.
Troubled times

The city was the largest in the area, containing roughly 300,000 residents. It was also congested, not as spread out as an American city, which made it difficult to operate in it efficiently.

In the past months my job had evolved into riding in the turret of my Humvee, with my two machine guns, patrolling the streets, a task that always seemed to lead to some sort of trouble.
At the time, one half of my unit was in Fallujah, battling the build up of insurgents that had been accumulating for months. Another quarter was north protecting a vital bridge across the Tigris River that insurgents had targeted in the past.
These forces were almost entirely made up of tanks, leaving us with four.

With tanks being the biggest bargaining chip we had, this use of the forces weakened our area, to say the least.
For this reason, my scout platoon, were tasked with keeping Ba'Quba and its surrounding areas under control.
Upon the initial push into Fallujah, insurgents identified the origin of the tanks involved in the fight, which quickly translated into where they came from: Ba'Quba.
With the notion of causing us to withdraw our forces from the Fallujah theatre, the insurgents moved quietly into the city of Ba'Quba the night prior, in preparation for an attack.

Rude awakening

They would not make their presence known until morning.
A deafening explosion, followed by what felt like an earthquake, pulled me out of bed that morning.
Insurgents had begun attacking Iraqi police stations in Ba'Quba, and a patrol in the area called in an air strike to clear a mosque containing armed insurgents. That deafening sound was two, 500-pound bombs making sand of the mosque.

Reports were coming in ranging from 50 to 200 insurgents still alive, attacking the city.
Not knowing what was correct, command assumed the worst.
We responded, in order, with our remaining four tanks, half of my platoon with our four trucks, and another platoon which would follow a good distance behind us, all flowing into the city in one long column.
Exodus

Upon exiting the walls of my camp, and starting the ¾ mile run into the city centre, I saw the peaceful population of Ba'Quba fleeing the city.
Thousands of people, carrying their most prized possessions, scurried down the side if the road, trying to stay as low as possible, as they thought at any moment they could be shot.
I remember one young man looking at me with a fear full eye, as if I myself contained all of the fury of hell within me and was about to unleash it on those remaining in the city.

This brought me to believe that this wasn't just some overzealous commander's response.
Behind the fleeing civilians rose the column of smoke from the bombs that had fallen not long ago. Judging by that, I figured any insurgent that was fighting had left, but either way, the city had to be secured. Once we passed the mass of people coming out of the city, we were left with what appeared to be a ghost town in front of us.

Seconds turned into hours as the first rocket ripped passed the tank in front of me, exploding across the street.

Many more followed in quick succession as the tank rotated it turret and shot its main gun into the building it came from, collapsing its entire front half which the tank quickly filled with machine gun fire.
Our turn...
Having trouble acquiring targets, and under a lot of fire, the tanks quickly pushed through, bringing us up to bat.
At the site of the exposed bodies of my fellow gunners and I standing out of the tops of our humvees, the insurgents quickly increased their efforts. The sides of the street were lined with one to three story buildings, divided by alleys. Every window seemed to have something being shot from it.
The gunfire sounded like popcorn. The tracer bullets still had a faint glow in the daylight.
I instinctively targeted each of these windows.
Much like trying to hit the gopher with the hammer at the arcade, trying to pick one window out of twenty is very difficult. In the confusion, the order came to "shoot anything the moved".
A logical enough order at the time, considering everything that was moving, was also shooting. With this, our four trucks erupted in a wave of hell that I wouldn't wish on anyone. Within seconds, multiple cars were exploding, balconies were collapsing, and buildings were catching ablaze. We moved from block to block.
Each volley of destruction was triggered by the sound of a bullet racing passed my ear, a rocket exploding nearby, or the vengeful eyes of my friends riding in the truck with me.
"Three O'clock, Second Floor! Five O'clock First Floor! Four O'clock Alley!"
I must have heard every combination.
Me or them

The insurgents would start to flee into other alleys only to be greeted by gunners to my front and rear. It was complete chaos, but we were staying alive.
It was me or them, and if I had anything to say about it, it was going to be them. I filled with a rage that I still cannot explain.
I felt my eyes swelling as my heart beat faster and faster, my arms burning from constantly wrenching the gun from target to target, my pores spewing sweat.
My nostrils grabbed the smell of gunpowder and car fires out of the air, my mouth tasted the gun oil coming off with every recoil, my ears ringing with a loudness almost equal to my surroundings.
All the intensity kept building at an almost exponential rate.
The skirmish lasted for nearly an hour, until it started to calm, resulting in only sporadic gunfire. We remained in place while other units in the area finished their objectives.
The muscles in my body had relaxed, but were still having spasms as the final traces of adrenaline left my blood. The sweat and gunpowder had stared to dry into a black dust all over my face and hands.

My mouth was hoarse from yelling to the people in the truck, requesting ammo and water to cool my barrels. During the whole ordeal I never thought to put any water into my own body, and at this point water never tasted so good. I drank half and poured the rest of the bottle over my face.
I dropped the empty bottle down into the truck, which caused a small avalanche of spent shell casings to fall into the floorboards of the truck.
Over 700 of varying calibres covered my feet. I wiped my face with my sleeve, and then it happened.
Missed...

An Iraqi with an AK-47 was running down across the street one block down the alley. I caught him out of the corner of my eye when he was already half way across the street, I quickly swung my gun over, started to fire just before he came into aim, walking the rounds into their intended target; but just as the rounds were about to fall upon him, he made it to the other corner.
I immediately keyed the headset to radio the gunner who was covering the alley he was headed towards.
Before I finished, I heard the gunner down the block fire a burst, followed by some soft chatter on the radio. I don't remember what was being said, because just as that gun cut loose, my attention was fixed on the terror in front of my face.
As the Iraqi had made it out of my field of fire, my gun strafed into a rickety trailer parked right at the corner.

Now falling out from behind this trailer was the body of a teenage boy. The void in his chest replaced what was once his heart and his body convulsed slightly as his nerve endings fired their last.
His body lay there in the filthy dirty street, muddy water surrounding him from the drainage of the nearby houses. A rolling pain stared at my eyes.
I felt it work its way through the optic nerve, and into my brain. It swirled around at the top of my spine, and then drained down.
Sickening

Nausea filled my stomach and a cold feeling overtook my flesh. How long had he been behind that trailer? Had he been there through the whole mess? Not to long afterwards, an older man emerged from around a corner, immediately collapsing nest to the young man's body.
It wasn't long before an ambulance arrived. Then the silence took over again. We would remain in place for another hour so, and then return back to the base, but my mind remains there to this day.
I was told a million times after that day, that what happened was completely out of my control, a series of unfortunate events.
A patriot might say "You did it for you country", while others scream baby killer, and hindsight is always 20/20.
Father says he's proud, friends ask what happened to the person they used to know, and the families of those who died, friend and foe, greave endlessly. I've torn it apart a million times in my head, re-evaluated over and over again, each time with the same result. It was unavoidable, at that moment in time.
E
veryone has their own tragedy, which relative to themselves, is equally painful to them as this was to me.
It is these events that shape us in our many facets.
In the end, we're the ones that have to live with it, but even if I got off easy.
I'm alive.
Hellblazer

49 Comments:

Anonymous Steve Kelly said...

I respect your right to speak your mind on this subject however it’s your turn to respect my right to do the same. You disgust me beyond words! The garbage that you put out there is the same crap as everyone else opposed to this war. All the same old regurgitated quotes, gripes, bitches blah blah blah… You disgrace the word “Veteran” every time you use it. Please do us all a favor and give it a rest. If you hate everything about this country just leave. I’m sure France, Iraq, North Korea or Iran would welcome you with open arms. Please don’t disgrace the memory of those who actually fight or have fought in this war with the poetic bullshit that you spew. If you disagree with the war, stick to the issues and leave the soldiers out of it. Let me guess, you joined the military for college money huh? I am glad that you made it back from Iraq alive, but saddened that you apparently lost half your brain in the process. Now you have yourself a nice day and thank you for allowing me to share my point of view with you.

Sgt. S. Kelly

5:46 PM  
Anonymous Phoebe said...

Different from you Sgt.Kelly and the guys of this blog, I'm not a soldier and neither a veteran. I'm just a average citizen who works to pay the bills and make the most rich people of our country more rich and to make myself more poor. I never felt the need and never found enough good reasons to enter at the army, yeah the money and college are good reasons but not that much.

Sgt.Kelly probably you didn't read the blog to know what these guys really think because by your words you sound a little bit ignorant about what already have been writen in this blog.
I don't think the guys hate our country and I don't think these guys want to get out of here. By your words I could figure this out, and different of you, I've read this entire blog searching reasons to make me believe in what you've said and I didn't found. You probably is just another very good loyal washed brain soldier. I'm glad you being a soldier and for have the will to kill anybody who's against our beloved empire, if I was a soldier like you, I would go to every country and do the cleaning. You sound a little bit obsessed with France and North Korea, why you don't start your cleaning in those countries? The people from these countries are tremendously dangerous don't you think? Like you, I'm tremendously afraid of people who are different from me.

I love freedom of speech coming from any soldier, they deserve this right more thain I do specially when they speak the true and not what their superiors want.
Guys from the blog, keep on speaking up the true about this war, is always good to hear the true from people who knows it.

7:43 PM  
Blogger The Statistics said...

Steve Kelly, you poor, manipulated stooge. I can't believe people in uniform, and who have been to Iraq or Afghanistan, can so vehemently support the same administration that has abused our soldiers like a red-headed step-child.

Steve, you are the perfect example of a soldier who has been victimized. There seem to be parallels between an abused housewife--ever so devoted to the man who beats her--and that of a soldier who lives in a constant state of denial.

Can you not see the part we all played, as veterans and soldiers, in this American adventure in Iraq?

Do you not see the criminal behavior of this administration, even after the dust settled in the recent election? (It is a FACT that the main reason Americans went to the polls this year was to vote out CORRUPTION.)

Do you not remember the amount of corporate pillaging and WAR PROFITTEERING (which is a federal crime in this country, I might add)that took place and is still going on through companies such as Halliburton-KBR, General Electric, Lockheed, Bechtel, Black Water Security, and so on.

Don't you remember how fucked up it was to be in Iraq, doing some insanely dangerous mission, and watching a contract employee doing essentially less than you but with far better equipment, a salary that dwarfed yours by at least triple, and all while wearing a polo shirt and a smug grin on his face while you toiled away pretending that your role in the actual Uniform of the US Military was somehow more noble and respectful than his?

After all, Steve, you didn’t do it for the money, that’s for damn sure.

Do soldiers like you really live in such a state of denial that when Uncle Scam comes at you with a back hand, you beg for the whole fist?

You know, I couldn't stand sergeants like you. So consumed and engrossed in your own measly authority over soldiers that you become completely subservient to the powers over you, and truly believe in authority with such fervor that you become depended on it for stability, and when actually given the chance to think independently, you instead just turn off your brain, shut the fuck up, and do exactly what you’re told, even if you know what you are doing is stupid, dangerous, or just outright immoral.

Servitude is pathetic, Steve.

You have the mentality of a cop. I'm sure if you had the chance, you would love to see me on the street and beat me within an inch of my life simply for not agreeing with you.

You say we disgust you? Well you disgust me. You not only protect a system that marginalizes the poor, terrorizes the citizenry, pisses all over our civil and constitutional rights, and arrogantly abandons our war veterans, but you protect it ever-so proudly and belligerently.

You are nothing more than a loyalist, Steve Kelly. And there are other Benedict Arnolds out there like you. Your very existence and subservient nature contradict the exact Constitution that you swore to defend.

So keep pretending that you served a noble cause, and keep imagining that the Bush administration is pure and honest and true. In time, there will be less and less "good little sergeants" out there who believe the hype. And somewhere down the road, when this country looks back on the Iraq and Afghanistan occupations with shame and regret, you will be the only motherfucker in the VFW crying in his beer over it. Confused, beaten, and distraught, you will wonder why the government you loved so much never seemed to love you back.

You also have a nice day, by the way.

-heckle

11:24 AM  
Blogger Marty said...

heckle,

I checked out Sgt. Kelly's blog. It doesn't appear he's been to Iraq yet, but he's chompin' at the bit to go. A little dose of reality will be good for his soul.

My son is coming home the end of this month, unless he gets extended at the last minute like before. He has served a total of 27 months in that hell hole Baghdad. He and the majority of the troops he has served with feel just like you.

Keep speaking the truth.

2:38 PM  
Blogger The Statistics said...

DAMN Heckle,

That was the most powerful SMACK down I have EVAH heard. I still can't stop laughing at this poor excuse for a Sgt. I fear for his troops that he obviously puts last behind this god awful administration.

the heretic

4:15 PM  
Anonymous Steve Kelly said...

Ok, so you all feel the need to spew your crap, yet not one of you are brave enough to post your own name? You hide behind a keyboard and tell people what they should and should not believe. I, just like all of you have every right (more so) than some who have commented to also speak my mind. As noted by Marty who actually took the time to check out my web site, I have not yet been to Iraq, and had you actually taken the time to do some research, you would have discovered that as well. It just shows me that what you say is whatever pops in to your heads and that you take no time to research your thoughts or what you call the truth. To you “Heckle” first let me say that I have no ill feelings towards you personally what so ever. I do not know you well enough to hate you. You see, I unlike you chose not to use foul language and hypothetical situations in a feeble attempt to degrade you. I simply evoked my right to freedom of speech to inform you that people like you disgust me. As evidenced in your writing, you are uneducated and uninformed, yet you continue to spew your rhetoric and messages of hate to anyone who is stupid enough to listen or brave enough to stand up to you. It is obvious that you have a severe problem with authority, probably due to your feelings of inadequacy. Just because you had Sergeants you disliked does not mean every Sergeant is as you put if “So consumed and engrossed in your own measly authority over soldiers that you become completely subservient to the powers over you”. You state that you believe I am subservient, yet you are the one blindly following the heard. You complain that the system “marginalizes the poor, terrorizes the citizenry, pisses all over our civil and constitutional rights” yet you do nothing to change it but complain on the internet? Surely you must know that if you have a complaint, than you better have a solution as well. I did not volunteer to go to Iraq based on my political views nor did I attempt to interject my beliefs upon you. I volunteered to go based on my personal feelings on the matter and nothing you can say will change that. I know it pisses you off when people disagree with you folks because it makes you think and obviously that it a challenge for you. And Phoebe, I did take the time to read the blog as I already stated, I did my research. But hey, isn’t that what makes this country of ours so great… the ability for anyone to speak their mind and agree or disagree with whom ever they choose? You folks have a great day I know I will.

4:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Go Sgt. Kelly!! Fuck these chicken little assholes!

6:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I volunteered to go based on my personal feelings on the matter and nothing you can say will change that. "

I would like to go and get some of that action. If we stabilize Iraq, think of all the oil contracts. We can all benefit. Saudi Arabia is an example of a friendly and free nation. We have to get Iraq up to that level and get thier oil flowing. I may never be as free as Saudi Arabia but think of all that oil. If I was a young buck like the sgt. I would go and fight as well. This is the west vs. terror and we can't let them control the oil.

8:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

whoa. "smackdown" is putting it nicely. what excellent wrtg. it seems like MR HECKLE made about 10 or 11 points very persuasively, but his respondents basically run a stream of inane, rambling, defensive, largely pointless, and most clearly non-responsive circumlocution and, best of all, childish vindictiveness.

after all, who isn't ready to "come home in a box" for the noble cause in iraq? terrorism must be defeated.

peace.

davey.

9:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr. Kelly is correct. You need to stick to the issues and stop trashing people who think differently than you. You hate the administration? Do something about other than bitch on here. Please gorw up and stop w/the bad language. You only make yourself look stupid!

11:00 PM  
Blogger Marty said...

"I volunteered to go based on my personal feelings on the matter and nothing you can say will change that."

Nope probably not Sgt. Kelly. But I bet an 15 month combat tour on the streets of Baghdad will. It will also give you a bit more credibility to speak on the subject.

11:26 PM  
Blogger The Statistics said...

Look Stevie,

I am glad you keep coming back to not only listen to anything we spew, but also swallow it all. You must enjoy the taste of having your feeble opinions ripped apart by stone cold reality. If you actually do your research you can probably find most of our names on this very site. Perhaps you lack the fortitude to face the truth? Most people like you fail to have the back bone or wisdom to accept the facts.

I also think that present us with more ammunition to degrade you than you us. That is likely the reason for your feeble comments? That is fine however, we will entertain your childlike views and continue to punish your dim wit with clever rebuttal.

It is great that we disgust you. You are well within the minority and not everyone can be reeducated and saved from believing in blind ideology. Your disgust is a symbol to me that we are on the right track. It is fully obvious that you are a mere stubborn clone, hopeless and pitiful.

The only authority I allow over me is competent and honorable governing. Like the founding fathers vision of a government that represent the majority, not some “decider” that dictates to his subjects wether to “Stay the Course”. I swore to serve as a weapon for my democracy, not a Justiciar for state and corporations. And I still serve the people of the United States before any corrupt ruler. It is through inadequacy that people put promotion and ideology before integrity and conviction. Perhaps you should reexamine that Army Values card?

I had Sergeants I liked and Sergeants I thought were ass kissing climb the ladder hope the command throws me a bone types. I think just your kind was put in the second category. So don’t attempt to confuse yourself with any qualified Non Commissioned Officer. Perhaps you will also have to read the NCO Creed?

Look around Stevie, you might find that we at FTS are much the leaders rather than the followers. Not only have we been speaking out largely against the war while we fought it, it was us who took the risk to attempt to inform the public about the realities of the occupation. However there were a few voices in the dark that now are finally being spotlighted. We thank everyone that has worked long and hard as the underdogs to achieve some position in the struggle. It hasn’t been the easy road, but we have always had the moral high ground.

How little you understand of what we actually do. The website is just another tool in the tool box. We are in books, magazines, newspapers, and on your tv. We are in the streets in marches and demonstrations and we are in on The Hill forcing legislation. We are turning foreign policy and dismantling domestic institution. Crossing the boarder or in your home town, we are FUCKIN’ your shit up!

What exactly are your personal feeling on the matter when you talk about why you joined and went to war?

The ability to speak our minds is an amazing quality and it is one that is in dire jeopardy if this administration is allowed to accomplish any of their plans. We have lost so much already and George W Bush has limited American Freedoms more than any president in history.

Of course you will have a fine day. Ignorance is bliss after all.

Anonymous, you are the most meek antagonist we have on the site. Please try to step it up a notch and come up with one original thought in your inane cheerleading.

The Heretic

4:52 AM  
Anonymous WhattheH said...

Hellblazer, thank you for sharing a very private hell. Without you, folks like me wouldn't have a balanced view because the war propaganda machine through the Main stream media are paintint this as a walk in the park. Rich men get richer, poor men lose their sons - fair trade? . War is HELL. Stevie hasn't yet understood that concept because he is probably young, has played the Pentagon sponsered computer war games and is gung ho and perhaps has watched too many John Wayne movies - bulletin - John Wayne never served his country, nor did the Decider who has decided to send everyone else's kids into this miasma.
I've been visiting this site for ages - and will continue to do so. I've been concerned because there is so much time between posting, however I will keep coming. Keep up the good work.
Oh, just in case Stevie wants to denigrate my opinion - sweetie my Dad, and both my uncles served during WW2. My grandfather was killed in 1918 - WW1. My family has a history of serving, but only causes that are worth serving.
Over a half million Iraqi civilians are dead because of one man's vainglorious attempt to become a historical figure. It will happen, but I suspect he won't like being put in the same category as Hitler and Stalin.

12:18 PM  
Blogger The Statistics said...

All of the authors on this site are now currently antiwar activists. Our views are seen by some as radical in nature, but our dedication to the Constitution and true liberty remains our undying conviction. To say we only hide behind our keyboards, or do nothing to enact change, or force our ideas on others is utterly false.

I’m J.D. Englehart, also known as "Heckle". I never tried to hide my identity. If you google Fight To Survive, or actually read through the blog for that matter, you can certainly find my name. Our decision to use pseudonyms does not need to be explained, but at any rate...

The opposition to this war or this government has no face. It cannot be easily profiled or identified. It is an opposition that can be found anywhere: it thrives in your community, it resides next door to where you live, or even secretly exists in your very own household! We are in every facet of your society. WE ARE EVERYWHERE! And as something that the Right has adamantly denied and the liberal Left has only seemed to catch on to recently, opposition has been festering under the surface for quite some time now. It has only been through recent GLOBAL events, in which the ruling minority has proven itself absolutely corrupt and fraudulent, that such an opposition has become a popular movement.

As a result--the few, the proud and the brainwashed--those of you out there who stand obediently behind a system that consciously manipulates us all, it is you who are quickly becoming the minority. You are the Loyalists who pledge allegiance to a molested and degraded alteration of the true freedoms that we as Americans have as our birthright. While your dedication to a sinking ship may seem noble, its your ignorance and arrogant nationalism that keeps you in line. Either wake up and help us to weed out these greedy two-faced crooks, or go home. We don't need you.

I do not choose my resistance to authority, it comes naturally. It’s not a result of insecurity, but rather one of personal integrity. And if ever a time comes to oppose an authority that robs us blind of even our self respect as adult human beings, then you're goddamn right I will stand up for the true values of freedom that is supposed to be what makes this country great. The freedom you choose is the freedom to consume. The only freedom you were ever taught is freedom FROM thought, nothing more.

There exists a better world on the other side of your narrow-minded wall.

-JD

12:46 PM  
Anonymous Steve Kelly said...

Come on Heretic you know as well as I do that you enjoy the fact that I keep coming back. Otherwise who besides your little group of internal terrorists would you have to chat with? You enjoy a good argument as much as I do. The only difference is that you resort to insults when you are confronted.

Let’s break down your response from 4:52 am…

Your comments to anonymous: I have to agree with you on that one as anyone who can not stand up and speak their mind under their own name has no business posting.

As for the Stevie reference: I happen to a 44 year old man so “Stevie” really does not seem too fitting to me. Although it does show your immaturity when dealing with confrontation.

Perhaps you lack the fortitude to face the truth?: Well, Perhaps I do, or perhaps I believe that if you want to follow your beliefs, you need to prove me wrong. So far you have not accomplished that task. You only prove more and more to me that you are childish in your comments.

The only authority I allow over me is competent and honorable governing. Like the founding fathers vision of a government that represent the majority: Forgive me but did they too not feel that war was necessary to obtain freedom? Do the people of Iraq and Afghanistan not deserve freedom?

Perhaps you should reexamine that Army Values card?: Pointless comment.

So don’t attempt to confuse yourself with any qualified Non Commissioned Officer.: Also pointless. What research have you done to come to this conclusion? Again, resorting to insults not facts when confronted.

We are turning foreign policy and dismantling domestic institution. Crossing the boarder or in your home town, we are FUCKIN’ your shit up! Who, what, where, when and how? What have you personally accomplished to, as you so eloquently stated – “FUCKIN’ your shit up!”

What exactly are your personal feeling on the matter when you talk about why you joined and went to war? First off, as I stated earlier I have yet to leave but am going next month. As for my Personal feelings, they are exactly that… My personal feelings not my political point of view. What you fail to see is that no everyone in this world follows your parties beliefs. Some people actually think on their own and make decisions based on those feelings rather than what they read or are told. Again, I have no ill feelings towards you as I already stated, I don’t know you so therefore if I hated you simply for what you say and believe I would be no better than you.

Ignorance is bliss after all Yes it is and you yourself fall into that category if you believe that you are the only one entitled to say what they think and that your beliefs are the only way to go. There are 3 sides to every story, yours mine and somewhere in the middle lays the truth. The difference between you and I is that I can see that even if I am as you put it “a mere stubborn clone, hopeless and pitiful” without the “back bone or wisdom to accept the facts.”

Sgt. Kelly

1:42 PM  
Anonymous eddie said...

Sgt.Kelly...After what you said you certainly made these guys to think about what they gonna answer to you in their next posts, they both must to be talking to each other and trying to find something to entertain us

8:50 AM  
Blogger The Statistics said...

C'mon Eddie, like we give a rat's ass about entertaining either of you morons with every dying minute of our day! Actually, we were kinda busy last night...all three of us were guests speakers at a discussion panel in New York City in regards to resistance in the ranks of the military. We rocked the house at the panel, then went and bar hopped at the lower east side, closed the bars with one last round of Pabsts, then watched the sun come up over the course of five rounds of stale coffee in some dive cafe. We generally mobbed around town like rock stars, like the good old days in Germany. In fact, we had such a great time, that Steve's name didn't come up once in the course of the evening. Sorry if we forgot to collaborate some nice little comeback for you. Really I can't even think of a comeback for him right now, for one I'm hungover, but also because he's been saying the exact same Loyalist bullshit for 3 posts now. What else can I say, our argument has actually moved into petty name calling. We'll continue this charade whenever we get around to it because you see, your on our turf. We'll dispose of you when we damn well please. Besides,its not like Steve gives us a chance to post on his blog(he must have removed the comments option back in October 2005, affraid of open forum discussion!?)And when DoD clones like you keep coming here and posting, your only adding more fuel to the fire. We feed of anomosity! Without it, this would be just some whinny liberal blog. So feel free to keep coming back for more, It's way more entertaining then being glued to the television screen.

By the way, Steve, let's get serious about our views here. I think the authors of Fight To Survive have adequately expressed our opinions well enough, why we're antiwar and why we place the blame squarely on the Bush administration. I would like to know why you support this jaded cause, why you think you need to get to Iraq so bad, and why you can't see the criminality and war profiteering going on over there. What makes this country great is that we can definately express our views freely and in a reasonable manner, even if they differ so much. You seem well spoken, so I cannot see why you don't elaborate more on why you feel so strongly about supporting this war and/or the administration that started it.

1:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

look dude, like he said, 'they deserve freedom...' ok? come on, THAT'S what it's all about, ya? also, we must secure the holy land or Jesus will not come back and save all the Christians.

good day!

daver.

1:48 AM  
Anonymous trisha said...

Daver...you've make me laugh so hard thanks LOL, We deserve much more Divine salvation than anybody else in the world, we're doing the cleaning, somebody has to do it if weren't us would be somebody else much worst

Steve...go to Iraq now and kill everybody who don't accept us, and the most important thing take our beautiful kind of freedom and lifestyle to that poor people, their culture and religion are bad, I'll thank you so much, what you want for Christmas?
I love my country too much and I don't want us to become narrow minded and ignorant, oh much worst become something like Germany was during the IIWW, I don't want to get out of my country just because speaking up against Imperialism and killing people because of oil can be dangerous, yeah sir we're in Iraq to get more cheap oil, I don't like French cousine and North Korea food must be terrible please don't send me to these places...Before I forget, thanks for your service!

To the guys of FTS...Thanks for your military service, and thanks so much for doing what you all are doing now, speaking up the truth, proud and patriot Americans must to hear it, we the average people can't keep on being ignorant, force us to hear

12:38 PM  
Anonymous WhattheH said...

I was the one who called you Stevie, not Hellblazer, not anyone from FTS, so you have an issue with me not them.
If indeed you are 44 years old, then you are sadly lacking in experience leading to wisdom, and I feel very sorry for you and your family. Good luck, if indeed you are being deployed, although I doubt it. If you are not the age you have claimed, and are not being deployed, then what kind of person are you to denigrate the service of others? Remember, you can be tracked back through your IP address.

9:00 PM  
Anonymous Steve Kelly said...

J.D.

I for one am not asking you to entertain me; I am only attempting to have a discussion on your point of view versus my point of view. Shame I had a drill this weekend I would have liked to have driven up to NY and have the discussion in person over a few beers. You too appear to be well spoken for the most part except when I say something that you disagree with which seems to be everything, but explain the following comment to me ” because he's been saying the exact same Loyalist bullshit for 3 posts now”. What exactly is your blog doing? Are you not preaching your beliefs on the entire blog not just three posts? I thought we had already established that EVERYONE is entitled to speak their mind not just you. As for the comments on my blog, it was a website not a blog so there was not a comment section. At present my site is off line until it is approved by my chain of command. In the meantime you can go to my original blog and post all the comments you wish. (http://theoldguard.blogspot.com/). As for my reasons for volunteering to go to Iraq, as I said they are NOT political. I had several friends over there that were killed or seriously wounded. These people believe or believed in this war. Not so much the whole WMD issues but the beliefs that these people deserve to be free to live their lives as they see fit not as some psychotic leader tells them to! I share these beliefs as well. Is it fair that their women are treated as second class citizens? Is it fair that while the people live in squalor Saddam Hussein stole millions from them? Is it fair that Saddam Hussein’s government repressed movements that it deemed threatening, particularly those of ethnic or religious groups that sought independence or autonomy? I guess that his killing of 30,000 persons during the 1991 uprisings is ok too? You see I don’t feel qualified to make political statements about the war only personal ones. I did not sit in on every meeting between Bush and his advisors and therefore I am not privy to everything that was discussed about why to go into Iraq and Afghanistan. Do I believe everything that comes out of the White House? Nope! You would have to be a complete idiot to believe everything you hear. Again, my reasons for wanting to go are based solely on my personal feeling NOT because as Trisha said: ” go to Iraq now and kill everybody who don't accept us”. Trisha, in answer to your question, ” what you want for Christmas?” World Peace would be fine thank you! You fail to understand that nobody WANTS a war Trisha especially a soldier, but when your country goes to war you go. The time to question is after the war not now. The only thing this does is undermine the government and demoralize the people that are fighting it. I am all for Freedom of Speech, that’s why I’m in the military to but there is a time and a place for everything and in my opinion, now is not the time to protest at soldiers funerals, burn flags and blast the soldiers over there simply because you don’t like the current administration. (Not that I’m saying this is what any of you have done) And WhattheH, perhaps you should read the comment above you last post. As for your questioning my age and my deployment you too can look here http://theoldguard.blogspot.com/. As for tracking via IP address, I am well aware of that fact as I happen to have a degree in Computer Programming. MY IP shows as Pasadena due to our servers being located out there in our corporate office. I hope that will answer your questions. Eddie, thanks for the comment!

Sgt. S. Kelly

11:11 AM  
Blogger The Statistics said...

No way Steve-o,

I love you coming back. Open debate is the spice of life. I don’t think we will ever change each other’s views, but we do see eye-to-eye on some things.

1) Free speech is vital and precious to our liberty. We don’t delete anyone’s comments on this site and ever body is welcome to be heard.
2) I believe there is war of necessity, Iraq wasn’t a necessity and I think Afghanistan is arguable as well. But, I would take up arms to repel a fascist government from power here in the US. Just as we had to do in the Revolutionary War.

Now the greater content that I believe we disagree with.

1) Your comments about me being childish, immature and part of a little group of internal terrorists could also be considered insulting. Did you know that terrorism is using violence to influence your social or political beliefs? I haven’t used violence since I was a soldier in Iraq. We are beginning to cross a dangerous line were people perceive protest as un-american. Thomas Jefferson once said that “Dissent is the truest for of patriotism. It is our society that needs to assure we use our military in responsibly actions and hold our government accountable when they fail. As a soldier I was a weapon of our democracy. Thus in a time of war our citizens must be most critical on discussions on whether America is using the Armed Forces in the interests of the majority. It is always the right time to question authority.
2) Who is the judge of this debate? Especially when we are talking about situations with no definite answers. We aren’t comparing data. If we are our own judges or we leave it up to the rest of the commentors on this site you have still failed to prove me wrong as well. It doesn’t seem like something we can score. You simply disregard anything I say as “pointless” if you have no rebuttal. Are you avoiding my comments because you are defeated in the point?
3) I will restate the some of the things you think are pointless in the form of a question for you.
4) Are there any aspects of the administrations handling of the war and the reasons for invasion that go against the Core Army Values, LOYALTY, DUTY, HONOR, RESPECT, SELFLESS SERVICE, HONOR, INTEGRITY, PERSONAL COURAGE?
5) Is there any part of the NCO creed that you can attribute to taken care of your Joe’s, that might hint at sending them into combat without proper training, equipment and causes that are fraudulent?
6) When I got out of the service the support for the war was 70% as was the President, we had a Republican majority on the Hill, Rummy was the Secretary of Defense, and soldiers were afraid to openly protest the war. All of that has turned. I feel I am a tiny piece in the millions of men and women who have worked hard to make positive change. I would say most Neo-Cons would say their shit is getting pretty fucked up. Although I am far from being a liberal democrat, I would say it is a sliver better than the conservatives.
7) Saddam Hussein certainly wasn’t the most just leader in the world, but compared to many, many other nations we could have warred with he is a saint. He had more rights for women than most middle-eastern countries, he largely based power on non-religious boundaries, tried to enforce a national ideal for Iraq, and was above most middle-eastern standards for science, medicine and education. Now we have paved the way for fundamentalists to take over and we emboldened extremist views against us. It is obvious that we can’t win hearts and minds with shock and awe.
8) I have tried to find some sort of emotion inside of me when I think about you and nothing comes up, not love, hate grief, stress, care, nothing. Maybe a little interest since it has been a while since anyone has attempted any serious dialog on this site. Our last troll stopped coming around.
9) I still don’t understand your “personal” reasons for going to Iraq. You say that you lost friends there, if you had friends that died in a fire would you become a firefighter? Are you going to get revenge? Are you trying to finish their job for them? Were you inspired by them some how? We laid out some pretty serious personal stuff in this site before, I would be interested to hear more on your motivation.
10) If in 1991 the uprising that was put down by Saddam succeeded, and there was a bloody civil war followed by ethnic/religious violence all to overthrow the Baathist Regime, do you think we would send 150,000 troops to stop it? How do you think George Bush would handle a violent insurrection in America?
11) I served with some soldiers who wanted war. They either were in the military a long time and never got there chance to play in the big game, or they were new recruits that joined up just to get some. But, most of us didn’t want it and could have lived with out it. LITERALLY.


If you think that the truth is somewhere in between your opinions and mine than what is the compromise? If we are indeed adults and we have to concede a little to satisfy the majority can’t we agree to disagree and come up with a solution that meets each others views half way?

The Heretic

3:34 PM  
Anonymous Steve Kelly said...

JD
I agree with you saying my comments about you being “childish, immature and part of a little group of internal terrorists” were insulting as was their intent. At least now we can move away from that aspect and discuss our point of view like adults (or so I hope anyway – ignoring the Steve-O comment).
Your comments about ” We are beginning to cross a dangerous line were people perceive protest as un-american” are not valid. I have never said that protest was Un-American. Without protest we would never have become a Nation. But a protest against American soldiers could very well be construed as Un-American in nature. You quote Jefferson as if to prove a point. I too can post select quotes by Thomas Jefferson to suite my needs as well “I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” But I really like this one “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle.” Great quotes, but used out of context they can be easily misconstrued as can anything spoken or printed.
You said that you don’t think this debate is something we can score, and I would have to agree with you on that point. I don’t believe in keeping score on something like this as I already said, there are 3 sides to every story. For me, this is not a debate that is about winning or losing. I don’t even consider this a debate at all. It’s simply two people (with color commentators) discussing their opinions.
As for the Core Values question, sure I think there are items that go against the Core Values. I never said that I agree with all the reasons for going to war in the first place. But again, there is your side, my side and the truth. We only hear what the press wants us to hear and we all know the press thrives on controversy. Anyone can spin this war whichever way they want, it just a matter of the people having the willpower to look for the answers rather than sit back and read the NY Times version. We are at war, war is ugly and people die. You say that public support for the war is waning, and the polls prove that fact, but the American people are lazy by nature and have grown bored with it. Just like with everything else we look for new and exciting things to occupy our minds. Drive down any street on trash day and see what we throw away. We replace things we are bored with on a daily basis as you will soon find out when your campaign fades into obscurity once the public has had it ‘s fill with your views.
You say that the administration is profiting from this war, and that is what it is all about, but let me ask you a question. Do you profit from this war? Are you paid when you speak at these functions you mentioned? What about a book deal, is that your goal from this, to write a book and make lots of money off the war? If you answer honestly, I think you will find that you yourself are a hypocrite!
You said that Saddam Hussein was a “Saint compared to other leaders? I guess running an authoritarian government, using torture and killings qualify one for sainthood? If he was such a saint, why was Saddam Hussein was found guilty of crimes against humanity in ordering the deaths of Shiite villagers in the town of Dujail and sentenced to death by hanging? Judging from the way he was captured, he sounds more like a rat to me than a saint. Would a saint hide in a filthy hole in the ground abandoning their country, followers, family and friends in a feeble attempt to save their own life?
As for you trying to find some sort of emotion in regards to me, don’t flatter yourself. You could care less about anyone who opposes you and your beliefs; kind of like the way Saddam ran his country. I get the feeling that you just can’t accept the fact that there are actually some people out there with a mind of their own who can think for themselves and would actually believe that helping an oppressed nation get back on their feet is a bad thing. You keep harping on my personal beliefs about the war and why I want to go, well it’s not about getting revenge as you stated and yes part of it has to do with the fact that I would like to finish the job. What kind of Nation would we be if we went in destroyed the infrastructure of a country and then said “Ok, we’re done here, now you clean this shit up”? Is that what you want? You think that by pulling out that will end everything? If so, you are sadly mistaken. I think deep down inside you know as well as I do that the United States can not just pull stakes and move out, but that goes against everything your party tells you to believe and we can’t have that now can we?
I don’t think either of us is qualified to answer you question on how President Bush would react to a “violent insurrection in America”. That’s like asking how you think someone with whom you have no personal relationship what so ever with would react to any given situation. As far as I can tell neither of us is credited with the title of “Mind Reader” and therefore we could not comment on the question with any creditability. But I am more than willing to hear your opinion on the matter.
I have no problem with agreeing to disagree and meeting in the middle on the issues at hand however as history has proven, results of this nature will not become available overnight.

Sgt. S. Kelly

1:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

brent, it looks like player #2 has made a logical error. he says that player #1 is a hypocrite if he makes $ off the war. let's look at this move. player 1 said govt A is bad bc it is making money off prosecuting a war. player 2 says that player 1 acts hypocritically if he makes some bank while trying to STOP the war. for this comparison to hold up logically, we would have to equate prosecution with protest. we cannot equate govt A's effort to make $ PROSECUTING the war w. player 1's making shekels off working to END the war.

brent?

signed,

color commentator dave

9:40 PM  
Anonymous Steve Kelly said...

Dave,

Just so I’m clear on this, it’s OK to make statements about the government profiting from the war and "raping the nation making the rich richer and the poor poorer" and then also profit from the war under the guise that your are trying to STOP the war? Bottom line is, someone who so passionately opposes the government making money from the war should they themselves practice what they preach. But the person to whom the question was directed has not given their response so let’s at least give them the chance to answer the question… But hey, thanks for the color commentary.

Sgt. S. Kelly

9:55 AM  
Blogger The Statistics said...

Steve,

I got the Stevie and Steve-O out of my system for now.

And just so you know, Heckle is JD, Joe is Joe Public and I am the Heretic.

I never said outright that you claimed that protest was un-American, however it is clear that you dislike the anti-war movement in all its aspects.

I haven’t heard a single protester say anything negative towards the troops. They stand firm in their message of “Honor the warrior and not the war.” To disrespect the servants of our democracy is absurd since it is the duty of our citizens to use the military responsibly, as I have said already.

Thanks for the Thomas J quotes. I agree that you can twist much that is said and printed. Most media is interested in making money before reporting honestly, and some are even partisan. NY Times might be left of center, but they had to even issue an apology for their reporting that was to close to the conservative party line. Then there is FOX News that is a joke among any intelligent viewer as being a professional news source.

However, I must remind you that we who write at this site do not just get our information from media, we have served in Iraq as soldiers and participated in the war. My eyes did not deceive me in the 12 months I was in Iraq. So if you subtract the media, and we are just two people discussing opinions, just remember one side of this dialog has had their boots on the ground and you are only about to.

I support your comment about war being ugly and that people die. I have proudly served as a peace keeper in Kosovo and do believe in just wars and war of necessity. The war in Iraq is a war of choice.

I also back your comment about Americans being lazy and the support for the anti-war being a fad. I certainly am not banking on half hearted liberals being behind my efforts for the long term. I trust Democrats about as much as I do Conservatives.

Trash Day!!!!!!! That’s when I do all my shopping. Because it is FREE FREE FREE, and since I don’t make any money off the movement, only ask for transportation costs when I do speaking events and if I ever wrote a book about my experiences the money would benefit programs to help my fellow veterans, I will take all the free shit I can get.

To answer you direct. I do not profit from the war.
I do not get paid to speak.
And I have no hope for a book deal.

I will say I am hypocritical sometimes, but I assure you not about these facts. If I weren’t a hypocrite occasionally than I would be stagnant in my views and never grow or adapt in. My thoughts and beliefs would fail to adapt. So I am an occasional hypocrite and I will admit when I am wrong when I change my views.

I said Saddam was a “Saint compared to many other leaders” Committing atrocities on their own people is something other nations do for a past time. Many African countries are in the grips of genocide and many of them are supported by governments. Egypt gasses their own citizens often and with out scrutiny by the United States. Turkey’s humanitarian challenges keeps them out of the European Union. There have been South American Regimes that brutalized their people and we offered them funding and weapons to keep it up. Saddam was hung fine, now it is George “W” Bush’s turn to stand trial.

I think it is pathetic that you will smash the media for spin and propaganda and than take my comment about Saddam and twisting it to suit your argument. I think it is plain to take what I said as not claiming Saddam is a Saint flat out, but seems like one compared to worse leaders of Nation. I would be cautious when throwing around attacks on us being hypocritical and then pulling a disgusting stunt like that. You severely damage your argument with such underhanded tactics.

It isn’t that I don’t believe there are people who can think for themselves and oppose my views, it is the fact that they base their views on information they gain from the media, which we have already determined is not credible, or their leadership, who have been proven to be misleading on the causes of war. That gives me little faith that those people know what the hell they are talking about.

We helped a semi-successful country into poverty and chaos and now lack the ability to fix anything with military action because the US Soldier is now seen as an occupier and not a peace keeper. If you break a honey jar you can’t fix it with a hammer. Sometimes the best way to help is to get the fuck out of the way.

I think there will be years of violence in Iraq thanks to us, and the longer we stay the worse it will be when we finally do pull out.

Who do you think my “Party” is? Do you see things in such polarized eyes that you believe if I am not a Republican I am a Democrat?

I didn’t ask what will happen if there is a violent insurrection in the US I asked “What do you THINK will happen?” Surely you have to be able to form some estimate about it. George “W” Bush is a very public figure and his actions have been recorded well in the last six years. If there is anyone we should be able to predict by now I think it should be him. So qualifications aside just give your best guess?

I will go first. If there is a violent insurrection in America George “W” Bush will declare martial law and activate the very few combat able Marines and National Guard, take away more American Rights, and use overwhelming force to purge the uprise as fats as possible. And if that includes killing over 30,000 citizens then I doubt he will bat an eye lash.
So we can’t force the majority of either side to consent to a middle ground, but we can at least find one between you and I. Let us pretend that it was up to just the two of us to decide the fate of Iraq (I realize this is mostly utopian, just give it a try.) I will state my demands, then you yours and we will try to meet in the center.

1) Begin to pull the Troops out of Iraq and back to their home duty stations now, taking only essential operating equipment keeping in mind security of our personnel as we withdraw.

2) Begin to open negotiations with Iran, Syria, Saudi, and Turkey to develop a forum on what to do next (possible peacekeeping coalitions, aid campaigns and religious ceasefires.)

3) Terminate all contracts for corporations that invested in programs in Iraq.

The Heretic

1:11 PM  
Anonymous Steve Kelly said...

Heretic,

At least now I know which of you I am addressing at which time. I would not say that I “dislike the anti-war movement in all its aspects”. As I previously stated, everyone has their right to protest and to speak their mind, I do not however appreciate the scum that protest at the funeral of a soldier, display signs thanking God for dead soldiers, burn flags and other despicable forms of degradation simply because they are against the war. Now before you jump all over my comment, understand that I am not accusing you personally of these acts. You say that you have never heard a protestor say anything negative about the troops? Are you speaking only of the people you know or of all protestors in general? The media is full of stories of anti-war protestors performing the acts I mentioned above. Speaking of the media, glad we can agree on that aspect. I respect the fact that you have served in the military and in combat in Iraq but even you have to admit that the U.S. is making progress in Iraq. Can you honestly say that you saw nothing good accomplished in your 12 months in Iraq? We as a nation can not pull out until the job is finished. These people want to be free and are working hard to accomplish that task. Again, do you think that pulling troops from Iraq will end everything? I know you will have a negative response to this quote by McCain but it rings very true: “The consequences of failure are so severe that I will exhaust every possibility to try to fix this situation. Because it’s not the end when American troops leave. The battleground shifts, and we’ll be fighting them again,” “You read Zarqawi, and you read bin Laden. ... It’s not just Iraq that they’re interested in. It’s the region, and then us.” Pulling troops out now only delays the inevitable. We will go to war with these people again. If not in Iraq or Afghanistan then perhaps Iran, Syria or even the United States. Zarqawi (when he was breathing anyway) and Bin Laden have both admitted that they can not defeat the United States in a sustained war, and that the only way is to defeat the U.S. is in the media or by drawing us in to a war with Iran. The following is taken form a document discovered in Zarqawi’s safe house: "The question remains, how to draw the Americans into fighting a war against Iran? It is not known whether American is serious in its animosity towards Iraq, because of the big support Iran is offering to America in its war in Afghanistan and in Iraq. Hence, it is necessary first to exaggerate the Iranian danger and to convince America and the West in general, of the real danger coming from Iran…” The document goes on to outline six ways to incite such a war between America and Iran. And Bin Laden on the September 11th attacks: ” "Terrorism against America deserves to be praised because it was a response to injustice, aimed at forcing America to stop its support for Israel, which kills our people." Can you honestly say that this gives you a warm and fuzzy? I don’t know about you, but in my opinion backing down and pulling out will only give these people more cause to kill more innocent people, women and children among them that don’t follow their beliefs. You said ”I think there will be years of violence in Iraq thanks to us, and the longer we stay the worse it will be when we finally do pull out.” Looks to me like there has been a few thousand years of violence in that region. It was there long before we got there and unless we put an end to it now, it will be there and perhaps here for a long time to come.
As for the creditability issue; I think we both have already agreed on the fact that neither Republicans or Democrats are 110% creditable no matter what the issue is.
When I said “Your Party” I was not speaking politically, I was referring to the people that follow your line of thinking. Perhaps I should have chosen another term.
I think you need to re-read the and I quote “How do you think George Bush would handle a violent insurrection in America ? statement. I completely understood your question and answered it in the correct context. Simply because I chose not to speculate on the “What if” does not make me wrong does it? Just because someone has been a public figure for the last six years does not mean that you can predict how they will react to a situation especially one of that magnitude. Your scenario seems to me to be a worst case scenario where I would like to think that if faced with the possibility of having to declare Martial Law and possibly kill American citizens because they opposed his administration that he would simply step down and quell the “violent insurrection in America”. Call me crazy but I like to try to see the best in people and not the worst.
As for your “mostly utopian” scenario were the fate of Iraq were up to you and I, sure, I’ll play. Here we go;

1) Begin to pull the Troops out of Iraq and back to their home duty stations now, taking only essential operating equipment keeping in mind security of our personnel as we withdraw.
Response: I feel that this is a huge mistake as I previously stated. If we pull out before the region is stabilized, everything the people of Iraq have done falls apart and the region erupts once again into war not only amongst themselves, but with their neighbors as well. Its dog eat dog and the biggest meanest dog wins. Do you think Iran or Syria would not walk all over Iraq right now if the U.S. was not there? We need to be there until Iraq tells us that they are prepared to stand on their own.

2) Begin to open negotiations with Iran, Syria, Saudi, and Turkey to develop a forum on what to do next (possible peacekeeping coalitions, aid campaigns and religious ceasefires.)
Response: I agree with you that there needs to be some sort of talks on what to do next, and to the best of my knowledge, this is already in the works however such things (Not the planning but the actual implementation) should be left until Iraq can stand on it’s own two feet so to speak and not be pressured into something simply because they can’t defend themselves. Which again is why I think pulling out now is the wrong answer.

3) Terminate all contracts for corporations that invested in programs in Iraq.
Response: Not sure I’m reading this one correctly. If you are speaking about Halliburton and the likes, well my response is yes they are making a boat load of money for the services they provide over there. If it was not them than it would be some other company. Do I agree with what they are doing, not really and in the end it will all come out.

I enjoyed the conversation, but unfortunately I will not be able to continue it as I am leaving on Saturday to fight a war that I strongly believe in, in hopes that one day your children and mine will not have to. I leave the last word to you and your “PARTY”

Sorry, couldn’t resist…

Sgt. Kelly

5:13 PM  
Blogger Marty said...

"I am leaving on Saturday to fight a war that I strongly believe in, in hopes that one day your children and mine will not have to."

That's what my Dad hoped for when he fought in WWII.

I respect you, Sgt. Kelly, because you are willing to go fight a war you believe in. I wish more of your "party" would do the same. I am always encouraging those who feel this war is right and support the president to put feet to their speak. But they just give me a bunch of excuses as to why they don't have to. But you are doing it. And for that I salute you.

It remains to be seen whether you will return still supporting the war.

Be safe.

9:13 PM  
Blogger The Statistics said...

Likewise, Steve. Be safe out there. Keep your head down and come back home in one piece.

We have always supported the troops from the very start. Remember, there is a huge difference between supporting the troops and supporting the war.

I will reiterate a few points before we finish this discussion:

FACT: not one single person in the Bush administration has seen combat in any form.

FACT: 41 members of the Bush administration have direct ties to the oil/petroleum industry.

FACT: Dick Cheney's Energy Task Force investigated Iraq's oil resources just 6 months before 9/11.

FACT: The neocon wet dream "Project for the New American Century" outlined the importance of securing dominance in the Middle East, specifically Iraq, and stated that in order to motivate America into a war-frenzy, a disaster in par with Pearl Harbor would need to take place.

Just look at the facts. We as a nation have been duped and conned into supporting a mafia-esque hit on an old friend with huge profits at stake. Worse yet, the noble intentions of our troops have been pissed on by this administration in its aims and desires for corporate pillaging and hegemonic dominance.

FACT: U.S. SOLDIERS ARE BEING USED AND MANIPULATED BY A CORRUPT AND THIEVING GOVERNMENT!!!

Hopefully you can see this fact while you are over there in Iraq.

I can understand how people would support the mission thinking that if we pulled out too soon it would detriment the Iraqis somehow.

I think we are at the point now where the idea of a troop pullout is not just a point of argument, but rather inevitability.

Our presence there is not welcome, nor has it ever been. More of our soldiers are coming home in body bags because of Americano-arrogance. Are we so afraid to lose a fistfight that we would sacrifice scores of our own flesh and blood not to mention thousands upon thousands of innocent Iraqis? Is winning that important?

I'm certainly not nay saying or pissing on parades, it’s just the way I see it. The only way this will ever end is when U.S. forces leave the Middle East. But how many more will die until that time comes?

I think the Iraqis will determine their own fate, regardless of our presence. But while we are meddling in the middle of it, we are not seen as an instrument of democracy, only as a hit squad for US Empire. That is certainly not respectable, especially in the Muslim world.

But anyways, Steve, keep your head down out there. You have your motivations, and we have ours. While we don't agree on the same things, please know that we still got your back.

-JD

3:27 PM  
Blogger Magz said...

Excuse me Mr. Kelly..I'm only a mother and a grandmother....but sometimes it's easier for us to see things simply....and what I see is a man who has never fought in Iraq.

6:31 AM  
Anonymous OralDouglas said...

Im not an active voice here, i jsut stop by to see how these guys are getting on from time to time and silently wish them best from my own corner of the world. But today i feel i have to interject with something here. Steve, in your latest post, you mentioned;

1)
"We as a nation can not pull out until the job is finished."

"backing down and pulling out will only give these people more cause to kill more innocent people, women and children among them that don’t follow their beliefs."

After having lived in several parts of the world, and experienced a variety of cultures first hand, i feel i should report to you that not everyone in the world feels the United States should come and forcibly insert our particular brand of freedom to "fix" things.
Recent History (the last 100 years) has proven that delusions of granduer, manifest destiny, and big stick policies have been horrible failures, often making things much worse. Overwhelming urges to rush in guns blazing and become the hero of the day looks great in the movies, but spilling blood for things WE feel THEY want/need/cant produce for themsleves is an example of stunning ignorance. More dictatorships and wars have been initiated by U.S. in the last 50 years then you would want to care to know about, because of the above mentality, or disguised by it. The "situation" in Iraq and the Middle East was caused by us. So denounce whoever you must, but for the love of god, look at our own histry before you start keeping a list of our enemies.

2)
""Looks to me like there has been a few thousand years of violence in that region. It was there long before we got there and unless we put an end to it now, it will be there and perhaps here for a long time to come."

Violence in the middle east has been probably less constant than in the rest of the world, and if you want to split conflicts and their residents up into hemispheres, than you would surely see that the vast majority of problems in the area have been casued by encroachment/diddling by the "west."


Furthermore, the eradication of other humans based on conflicting beleifs has been a specialty among people with the might to do so. And it continues to this day, even by us- except we cnat hear the beat of the drums because theyre behind us, so to speak...

Look, the bottom line of what im trying to say is that people in the rest of the world dont necessarily want our help. Believe it or not, but delivering American Democracy to other people on the end of a spear is the furthest thing from freedom you can get.

But nevermind that noise. You'll see the bigger picture or you wont. Either way, stay safe.

9:52 AM  
Blogger The Statistics said...

Stay vigilant Steve,

I want to wish you and your soldiers luck on your deployment. I hope you and your troops come back safe. If you have a second drop in online when you get situated there. I will check your blog every now and again to see how you are doing.
Back to the discussion:

1) The Phelps “God Hates the Fag Army!” crowd are not anti-war. They love the war because they feel it is killing homosexuals. The religious extremists are found on boths sides of the puddle. Behind the ELF/ALF the Anti-Abortion crowd destroys more property and kills more Americans than any other internal terrorist group in the US.

2) I support the right to burn the American flag. I don’t do it, because mainly I have the right to. It is the biggest example of our freedom to make such a statement as burning you’re the very symbol that represents and protects our rights. Being opposed to US policy does not mean you are opposed to the troops.

3) I can honestly say I did not see any good things while I was deployed in Iraq. We opened a factory that no Iraqis ever began working in and passed out some food and water to kids. We destroyed more mosques, schools and houses with collateral damage than I can count and we hur and abused the local people.

4) You say we can’t pull out until we finish the job, perhaps the job can’t be finish unless we pull the troops out? Besides that the mission is fully defined. Also I believe different groups have a separate goals on what success in Iraq means. If you are asking if I think pulling the troops out of Iraq will end violence there, no I do not. It will take some time for the Iraqis to find a system that will work and there will be violence for some time there.

5) What McCain doesn’t realize or hope that you never do, is that Al-Qaeda makes up less than 5% of the insurgency and they are disliked by most of the Iraqis and major players in the region. Al-Qaeda will likely be purged from Iraq if we pulled out.

6) There has been a long history of violence in Iraq, much is due to British occupation, war with Iran that was supported by the US, the first Gulf War and now OIF. So most of the violence in Iraq stems from other countries meddling in their affairs.

7) Not answering the hypothetical questions don’t make you wrong, it just makes you appear as if you are unwilling to think about it.

NOW OUR PROJECT


1) Begin to pull the Troops out of Iraq and back to their home duty stations now, taking only essential operating equipment keeping in mind security of our personnel as we withdraw.
Response: I feel that this is a huge mistake as I previously stated. If we pull out before the region is stabilized, everything the people of Iraq have done falls apart and the region erupts once again into war not only amongst themselves, but with their neighbors as well. Its dog eat dog and the biggest meanest dog wins. Do you think Iran or Syria would not walk all over Iraq right now if the U.S. was not there? We need to be there until Iraq tells us that they are prepared to stand on their own.

A Suggested compromise: Seems like the redeployment over the horizon options suits a middle ground here. US Military can reenter Iraq if this go horribly wrong or if Iran and Syria invade. I don’t think they will as then they will replace us as the occupiers and we can join support for the resistence.

2) Begin to open negotiations with Iran, Syria, Saudi, and Turkey to develop a forum on what to do next (possible peacekeeping coalitions, aid campaigns and religious ceasefires.)
Response: I agree with you that there needs to be some sort of talks on what to do next, and to the best of my knowledge, this is already in the works however such things (Not the planning but the actual implementation) should be left until Iraq can stand on it’s own two feet so to speak and not be pressured into something simply because they can’t defend themselves. Which again is why I think pulling out now is the wrong answer

We still treat Iran, Syria and N. Korea as “The Axis of Evil” and we categorize Hezbollah and Hamas as terrorist organizations. These factions are the strongest players in the Arab and Persian world and we fail to meet them at the negotiating table. When there is any dialog we take a hard line stance and never come to any agreement.

3) Terminate all contracts for corporations that invested in programs in Iraq.
Response: Not sure I’m reading this one correctly. If you are speaking about Halliburton and the likes, well my response is yes they are making a boat load of money for the services they provide over there. If it was not them than it would be some other company. Do I agree with what they are doing, not really and in the end it will all come out.

Correct, the contractors in Iraq can be replaced by Iraqi laborers and the military duties should be done by US personnel, we can cook our own food, and repair our own vehicles. The money that we pay out to contractors muddy the water in any legitimate nation building efforts and make us seem less sincere on our promise to bring democracy to Iraq. Also it is a waste of American tax money.


I get the “Party” label now. I like to think of us as a tribe, family or clan.

The Heretic

11:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Religion, "family values" wedge issues, and nationalism the cover for war profiteering and imperialism. Big oil, the republican party, & the israeli govt. are the real devils. They Step out of the shower with a cross in one hand and a flag in the other and get into either a suit or a uniform and try to force thier insanity on others for power and profits. Disgusting monsters. The people who write on here are pretty good dudes. Keep up the real fight.

3:39 AM  
Blogger j.cro said...

I'm a little late in the comment game here... I've only just returned from a three week trip out of the country, so forgive my lag.

STEVE KELLY you said,

"The only authority I allow over me is competent and honorable governing. Like the founding fathers vision of a government that represent the majority: Forgive me but did they too not feel that war was necessary to obtain freedom? Do the people of Iraq and Afghanistan not deserve freedom?"

Iraq and Afghanistan absolutely "deserve" freedom. But only if THEY CHOOSE TO RISE UP AND GRAB IT FOR THEMSELVES. It is NOT the job of the United States to give people "democracy and freedom" by way of a gun.

We are NOT the world's police and it is not up to us to be nation builders. It hasn't worked in the past and it's not going to work now.

We are not supposed to be in the business of colonizing any longer, but this whole Iraq mess is nothing more than that.

You are no better than all those other soldiers and citizens throughout all of history who said, "I was only following orders." If you're as intelligent as you profess to be, then you might actually question something you think is wrong, even if you are a soldier.

I feel sorry for people like you.

Good luck to you.

9:35 PM  
Blogger j.cro said...

Also Steve, you can go to my own blog and read something I wrote about those "protesters" at soldier's funerals. Those are NOT anti-war protesters, they're fanatical "christians" spewing hate.

Please read my post called " What kind of Christian are you?" posted in August of 2006. There are a many links in there that will tell you all about those "christians"

Anyway, good luck in Iraq. Be as safe as you can in the middle of a warzone.

Also, I hope if you get some orders that are suspect, you will think about what it will mean for you and your fellow soldiers if you blindly follow them.

Keep your head down.

peace

9:54 PM  
Anonymous monica benderman said...

Soldiers choose to serve based on their personal experiences, beliefs and situation. Some have had pain from Iraq that will take a lifetime to recover from. Others have been in situations in which they were given the opportunity to work in humanitarian roles and make a positive difference for the Iraqi people. Depending on where they were stationed, the experiences each soldier returns home with creates the beliefs they hold onto about war.

If everyone here is truly for the veterans of this war, I would like to think they could find a way to understand the perspectives each veteran brings to the discussion, to hear what each says, and know that we need all perspectives to understand the truth of the situation.

Soldiers are dying. Soldiers are serving, fighting or leaving the service for reasons that are theirs alone.

If you have not walked in their shoes, it would be difficult to argue with what they have seen, done and now live with.

It seems to me we need to be working together to give veterans and active duty soldiers the rights and respect they deserve, whether they choose to continue to fight, or seek to come to terms with their conscience.

The endless divisiveness is doing none of them any good, and the families are paying the price right along with them.

Make your choice, know you did the best you could for yourself and your family, and allow others the right to do the same.

Isn't that what veterans have served for, regardless of the war they fought?

8:58 AM  
Blogger The Statistics said...

Great to have a comment from you Monica,

How’s your husband?

I agree depending on your MOS, the time you served and where you were stationed has a huge impact on how you view the war in Iraq.

No matter how many humanitarian mission a soldier can go on it is outweighed by the poor conduct in which the way the war is handled, the unrecognized and deliberate obfuscation of the consequences and the causes that are fraudulent. The few “good things” an individual soldier does in Iraq are like pin pricks in a black sheet. They are few but the shine because soldiers need to justify their sacrifice in some manner.

Other soldiers are so polarized in their opinions they refuse to see the dark truth no matter how obvious it is.

These folks are not my enemy, because I am understand why they see things as they do. I also admit that I am not 100% right, but will argue my points until someone can challenge them convincingly enough for my beliefs to evolve.

If you comment about us finding a way to understand the perspectives of every Iraq War Veteran had to do with Steve Kelly, than you should be aware he has yet to fight in the war, or perhaps is there now having a reeducation about the situation since he hasn’t commented in a spell.

One of the reasons we first developed this blog was so that civilians could get an idea of what a handful of soldiers were experiencing and feeling. That is why it is so important that Kevin continues to speak out about what he went through and that you speak out so folks know what a military spouse goes through.

The institution is not doing the veterans and soldiers justice, and as long as there are people that seem satisfied with the current status quo I will fight them and be opposed to their policies.

As you said soldiers fight for a variety of reasons, some of them base and self serving and some out of necessity or because of a sense of duty and loyalty. Regardless the fight is far from over after we return. We have an apathetic society and an unconcerned elected government who’s goals are set on stay comfortable and being re-elected, not on doing right to our nation, constitution, or the people who choose to serve.

The Heretic

6:19 PM  
Anonymous monica benderman said...

You'll be seeing us around. Kevin's doing well. He has taken some time to get himself used to life again. And we have a few good projects in the works which will become public in the next few weeks.

Right now, we're watching friends get ready to deploy to Iraq for the third time. First Brigade here at Ft. Stewart is leaving now, and there are more that were given their orders to leave early next year. It's not easy for any of them, and most have serious questions these days. The fact is, without the right kind of support from the civilians and congress, they feel as if their hands are tied.

I know what we have been through -- without the resources and contacts it would have been almost impossible. Most of these soldiers don't have what we did, but we are going to do our best to give it to them.

It takes a lot to keep from losing everything when you go up against the army.

There's even a book coming later this summer -- all to help raise awareness of the issues soldiers and veterans face every single day.

Some people have to learn things firsthand before they know what direction to follow. I think the Sgt. here might be one. Kevin was. But you know -- those people are strong-willed, and when they come to the right road, they are committed to it. They are who we have to count on to be the voices others need to hear. Sgt. Kelly spoke as someone who hadn't had the firsthand experiences, once he does, his voice will change. He may not be anti-war, but he will speak with experience, and wisdom - there will be a difference.

There are many soldiers now who want to serve as they had intended. They do not want this war - but they are soldiers and they want to serve as soldiers - as peacekeepers, not mercenaries.

We have to hear from all of them, even the Sgt. If we don't hear what he's thinking, how will we know how much there is to teach???

Thanks for having the forum. Glad I found it.

9:52 PM  
Blogger Marty said...

I hope Sgt. Kelly is alright. His blog has not come back online yet. I was hoping to keep up with him.

I am a member of Military Families Speak Out and work closely with those in the Houston area.

My son is home now and will be out of the army in less than 90 days. He spent 27 months in Iraq. 15 months in Baghdad with the 1st AD from April 03 to July 04. Then again with the 4th ID in Taji from Dec 05 to Nov 06.

Thanks so much for all you do.

1:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The fact is, without the right kind of support from the civilians and congress, they feel as if their hands are tied. "

Glad to hear that. Should we support a war based on fake WMD...an INVASION on a country that had nothing to do with "911"?
All those dead Iraqi civilians, all ( let's be conservative) 350,000 that have died for what? A puppet democracy in a Green Zone that wants a cut of thier oil? Yikes, I sure am glad there are a few who dont support this HORRIBLY IDIOTIC "war".

I am NOT anti war, Im anti STUPID, IDIOTIC, SICK WAR. This country was suckered into a war for oil regardless of the fact that it has created tons more "terrorists". Worse than that, there is good reason now to question ( or hate, depending where you live on the globe) the good ole USA. Good luck to Rumsfeld, Condie, Bush and Cheney. The sad part is that average joe soldier probably still has thier wool pulled over thier eyes. You guys on here who have fought in this pathetic invasion see what's up, but most don't. It's pretty obvious when you cut through the BS. This isn't a war like WWll. This isn't even as valid as Vietnam. This is the most stupid ass war ever waged in history, and worse than that it is a flop execution wise. That is just HORRIBLE! God bless the wounded and dead GI's and all the Iraqis too. It looks like well just keep slugging this out on the taxpayers dime. Thats the neocons for you, to the bitter end they wont give an inch. Sad but true. Look for more troops and more death in coming years... all for nothing, unless youre in the corporate war machine and profiting from the taxpayers funded invasion for oil.

12:11 PM  
Anonymous Kevin M. Benderman said...

I have read some of the posts here and I think some of you need to be a little more subdued in your remarks to each other. There will have to be some communication on both sides to reach a medium point. You cannot have the extremists on either side in control because that shuts out the vast majority of Americans who are in the middle.
My name is Kevin M. Benderman and I am a veteran of the Iraq war and when I realized what was happening in Iraq and what was being done to some of our soldiers who served honorably I could not do more of the same.
I went to jail and served 13 months of a 15 month sentence after I was convicted of Missing Movement by Design. I did not miss movement but I was falsely convicted by an out of control command. I will not go into all of the details now.
I hope that SGT Kelly comes back from Iraq with all of his parts and that he doesn't suffer from PTSD when he does. I know some people who served over there and they are suffering from those problems and worse.
We are going to have do more to really support the people who serve than just put one of those stupid yellow ribbon magnets on our cars. Monica and I, along with some other people, are working on some programs that really help the veterans of this and all wars who need it.
There are many issues that service people face and all of this name calling and finger pointing does nothing for them or any one else. We need to have some common sense solutions so that our service members are not put into wars frivolously. The American people as a whole never cared about the TROOPS until this war broke out.
I think we owe the people who serve more than that.

2:53 PM  
Blogger One Veteran said...

to all the steve kellys of the world, you probably have never been to war or shot an innocent civilian on accident, because if you had, then you'd probably understand the perspective from which the author of that account was writing. It's not the, "we're right, they're wrong, and kill everyone who disagrees," perspective. It's not "garbage" put out there for partisan political gain. How can you leave the soldiers out of the issue of the war, SGT Kelly? You don't make sense. Why are you so angry? The world isn't black and white, SGT Kelly. I'm a veteran, decorated for valor, but I guess I am "disgraceful," because I'm not afraid to question whether or not we are using our military effectively in Iraq, huh?

4:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"the day that haunts me" was a story about a bad war experience. Why Kelly posted about it being anti war is beyond me. If you read this blog as I do, you see a lot of unrelated comments...and I suppose thats fine. From Kelly's original comment, you get the impression he didn't even read the story. That reminds me of the typical neo conservative warmonger response to anything they assume is anti-war. This story could have just as easily been a WWl or WWll story, and was hardly anti-war per se.
An anti war story would point out how evil it was to invade Iraq on false pretenses, using 911 as a foot in the door for oil while escalating hatred abroad. What has really been achieved besides having more people hate the USA? It seems thier plan for stopping terrorism is to create more terrorists. That would be funny if it weren't so dangerous for America's future.

3:38 PM  
Anonymous Tony said...

What fascinates me is Kelly's use of just about every aspect of writing that he finds disgusting in his opponents' posts. Not surprising, since hypocracy is a buzzword of this administration's views on the war.

6:48 PM  
Anonymous PhilanthropicTravel said...

"If you are coming to help me, you are wasting your time but if you are coming because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together." -Indigenous Saying

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